The GGR forum has reached it's end, but posts are still available read-only for posterity. We invite you to make posts and discussions on the GGR Facebook page.

Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Use this forum to ask questions, clarifications, and issues about current rules

Moderator: David Leong

Post Reply
User avatar
itacud
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: norcal

Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Post by itacud » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:36 pm

Hi,

I'm sorry if I'm asking a question that has been covered elsewhere, but after a bit of searching, I was not able to find any reference to the new breed of Anti Submarine (ASM) Schroth belts, which are DOT/ ECE/ FMVSS approved for street use. These belts are designed as 4-point systems that are safer for the occupents than a traditional 3-point OEM belt, with respect to prevention of submarining in a frontal impact. They are equivalently much safer than a standard, non ASM, 4-point harness.
Here's an excerpt from the Schroth site: http://english.schroth.com/tuning/technology/asm.php
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
asm®
The patented SCHROTH asm® system offers an unique safety advantage for 4-point harnesses. asm® is the acronym for anti submarining. The risk to submarine (sliding underneath the lap belt), a well known phenomenon during frontal impacts, is significantly reduced by the asm® safety system. The energy converter is located in the inboard shoulder belt. Therefore make sure you purchase left and/or right harnesses.
Severe injuries or death are possible using 4-point harnesses without the SCHROTH asm® safety system or an anti-sub strap. SCHROTH harnesses designed for use on public roads (FE push button models) or those likely to be used as 4-points come with the asm® safety system. The performance of the SCHROTH asm® safety system has also been positively tested in conjunction with airbags. Current Head And Neck Supports (HANS®) provide further reduction of head deceleration and neck injury. All SCHROTH racing models likely to be used with any head and neck devices come without the asm® system.
Racing harnesses without asm® must be worn with an anti-sub strap!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm considering the installation of a pair of these Schroth belts, for use in my daily driver / driver-education car. I'm most interested in the system that uses an inertial reel, just as the factory 3-point belts have, allowing a driver/passenger full freedom to move their torso forward to reach vehicle controls, etc. While I read that these belts are perfectly safe/legal to use on the street, I'd like to confirm that they will pass PCA tech approval for use in Driver Education events, before making the considerable investment in them. These non-competition ASM belts and standards approvals are shown here: http://english.schroth.com/tuning/homologation.php

Thanks again for your input!
--
Image

User avatar
Dan Thompson
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Auburn, CA

Re: Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Post by Dan Thompson » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:11 pm

No, our current rules allow only stock seats with stock belts or 5-6 point harnesses with appropriate race style seat with slots for shoulder harnesses and sub strap.

As a matter of fact, our current rules are written as such, due to the information we have received from Schroth regarding stock seats used with 5-6 points harnesses and the use of appropriate seats with 5-6 point harnesses. And, that 4 point systems were not safe.

go figure....they tell us 4 points are not safe and then the manufacture and sell them???? :?

but the quick answer is NO, you will not be able to use any 4 point system for GGR DE/TT events, until we get other information from PCA National.
Dan Thompson
GGR DE/TT/CR Racecontrol

User avatar
itacud
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: norcal

Re: Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Post by itacud » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:08 pm

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your reply. I've tried to catch up on the past year's worth of discussion concerning the new harness rules, in the past few days. (Now I'll have to catch up on work over the weekend. =) In all the ongoing discussions, the danger in using harnesses w/o anti-sub straps is referred to often, but no mention was made of Schroth's new 4-point harness anti-submarning technology. While Schroth does themselves strongly argue against traditional 4-point strap usage, they seem quite confident of the safety of their new ASM technology. There is a video on the web showing the crash sled comparison of dummy's in a 3-point belt, and dummy's in a Schroth ASM 4-point belt. It demonstrates the superior performance of the Schroth ASM system, as compared to OEM belts. (It's tested with airbags as well.) I originally found it on the Schroth site, and the HMS motorsport site, but I can only quickly find the videos re-posted on youtube right now:
4-point/3-point vs ASM 4-point:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HR_FhuSEaU8
3-point vs ASM 4-point:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CS6wof_d1_8
Schroth with Airbag:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bHbwvYqq22s

I supposed it will take time for this information to work it's way up to the PCA national decision makers, before an ammendment to the previous ruling can be made? I'll just try to avoid any front end collisions, all together, in the interim. ;-)

Oh, one other question. I couldn't quite tell from the most recent discussions if there is yet a decision as to whether or not totally stock cars with stock seats/belts will be permitted to partake in the time trial laps? Thanks again for your response!
--
Image

User avatar
Dan Thompson
Posts: 746
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Auburn, CA

Re: Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Post by Dan Thompson » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:21 pm

the final word on stock cars competing with stock belts and seats in TT will be decided at the April Board meeting.
After the vote, a Technical Bulletin will be posted here and on the GGR website, with the decision. :)

also per the bbs rules, could you please include your name in you signature line so we know who we are conversing with? Thanks
Actually your screen name is supposed to be your name
Dan Thompson
GGR DE/TT/CR Racecontrol

Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp)
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 7:49 am
Location: Livermore Ca

Re: Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:39 am

you might want to contact a Schroth tech person and make sure that they are designed for a Porsche Seat......if if youlook at this page

http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/FE-Ve ... -Print.pdf

it says Porsche stock seats are not approved

they also say in their website that in no case should a stock seat be modified for a substrap
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

User avatar
itacud
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:03 pm
Location: norcal

Re: Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Post by itacud » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:51 pm

Hi,

First, let me just apologize for using the wrong username. I've long used this one, (an anagram of my other passion, "ducati") and diddn't realize I was in violation of this board's rules. My name is Partha, and I definately hope to meet all of you at the upcomming Thunderhill event in April!

Larry, thanks for the link to the Schroth fitment list. I do remember seeing concerns about fitment of the ASM harnesses around integrated headrests, not working with the mounting points Schroth lists. As Schroth says, "...For installation of tail strap to this anchor point, only use special seats....", referring to the anchor points in C pillar or behind as indicated in the installation instructions for certain 4-point belts. I would try to fit the tail strap, however, to a proper load bearing harness bar. As my shoulders seem wider than the seat, I think I need to pay a visit to a local retailer to test fit an ASM harness in conjuction with this harness bar, to see if this makes for interference free belt routing. Brey-Krause also makes a harness bar mountable back-brace designed for stock reclinging seats, should strengthening the seat installation be required. Regardless, I realize that no Schroth ASM 4-point belt is currently in compliance with PCA guidelines, so the research would be purely academic for now, or at least to verify safety of the system for use with other clubs, etc.

Again, thanks to everyone for contributing to the discussion! :D
--
Image

Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp)
Posts: 389
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 7:49 am
Location: Livermore Ca

Re: Schroth ASM DOT legal safety-belts in DE events...

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:31 pm

I have heard they work well in BMW DE groups ...But as always the big thing iis if a manufacturer says it isnt right .. we open ourselves as a club to a risk we may not want to take
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests