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Modification Point Clarification

Use this forum to ask questions, clarifications, and issues about current rules

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Springgeyser
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:26 am
Location: San Mateo

Modification Point Clarification

Post by Springgeyser » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:52 am

Hi,

I was just wondering how 6GT3 and 996 can be in the same AX class when only the 996 get hit with non'stock' modification points.

e.g.
GT3 (none of these 'stock' parts count as modfication points).
-Stock GT3 coilovers with adjustable perch. 0 pts.
-Stock spherical strut top (allows for >-1.8 negative front camber). 0 pts
-Stock adjustable ARBs. 0 pts.
-Stock Adjustable front control arms (allows for > neg camber). 0 pts.

996 equivalent modification (mine).
-JIC coilovers with adjustable perch (+80 pt). Even if I went with GT3 coilovers, it would count as a 80 pts mod.
-JIC spherical strut top. (+10 pt).
-GT3 adjustable ARBs. (+30 pt)

Sounds to me the GT3 is the way to go with more power, LSD, bigger brakes...
Peter Lim

996 C4. AX6

Springgeyser
Posts: 121
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Location: San Mateo

Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Springgeyser » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:49 pm

Since there is no response I'll clarify a bit on what I am asking.

A regular NB 996 w 'stock' GT3 coilovers, GT3 ARBs, GT3 monoball strut top will get slapped with modification points. The same 6GT3 from the same model year will not incur any of the modification points.

If a LSD equipped car from the factory or aftermarket will get hit with the same 30pt, why...
Peter Lim

996 C4. AX6

Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp)
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:48 pm

Peter what could happen is someone could put in upgrade shocks and spring with a much higher spring rate and put in after market swaybars making the car more stiff and better able to handle higher cornering .. the mods are if your going to make it perform more than factory .. your comparing it like if some just changed stock parts for stock parts most people who are going to try to improve the car for track or ax make bigger changes than stock parts for the most part.. Better bang for the buck so to speak .. It is your choice what to do when you do decide to modify your car .. But if your not going to take full advantage of the modification that is your choice
1993 RS America
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1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
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1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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Dan Thompson
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Dan Thompson » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:40 pm

that is one of the current issues....with our system.
whether you just put on stock rate lowering springs or 600# track springs you get the same points hit.
Just depends on how much granularity you want/need.
How much granularity can our system really handle before you turn folks off completely?
Dan Thompson
GGR DE/TT/CR Racecontrol

Springgeyser
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Location: San Mateo

Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Springgeyser » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:05 am

Thanks Larry and Dan.

Our current points system tacks on 30 pt for an LSD whether it is 'stock' or aftermarket on a Porsche. Why wouldn't we do the same for a adjustable coilover suspension 'stock' or aftermarket?
Peter Lim

996 C4. AX6

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Dan Thompson
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Dan Thompson » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:21 am

:D
Dan Thompson
GGR DE/TT/CR Racecontrol

Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp)
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:11 am

I think there is a line for a M030 suspension which was meant to be what your thinking Peter.. LSD has point since some cars have it and some dont .. so almost all cars dont have it applied to their stock base points..
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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Mark Powell
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Mark Powell » Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:43 pm

Peter,

A GT3 could have a competitive advantage over its 996 or 997 counterpart. The Points System prior to 2010 had a provision for "adjustment points." (See excerpt from 2009 Rulebook below) That provision was eliminated as part of simplifying the rules package for 2010. If you would like to see that provision returned, you can submit it as a proposal for the 2011 rules.

Mark Powell

Step 3: Other "Adjustment Points" (From 2009 Rulebook)
Other adjustments may be made as deemed appropriate to consolidate models, account for the performance potential of specific models or balance competition. The 996 GT3, for example, was assigned 725 basepoints for both Autocross and Time Trial. These values are 150 points above its "initial basepoints" determined by its power to weight ratio. The additional points were assigned due to the high performance potential of the GT3 "package".

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johntavernetti
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by johntavernetti » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:46 pm

Peter, Sorry for the delay: It has been a while since I checked this forum. I think the fact that you are seeing GT3s in your class is more a function of the fact that your car is significantly improved from stock rather than any shortcoming of the rules. You are running in AX4. Getting a 3.4L 996 to that level takes a lot of mods, so you have essentially built yourself a custom car with 300 modification points (not including the 140 wheel width points): You are running DOT slicks, race seats, an incomplete interior, non-stock bodywork, lightweight battery, and almost every conveivable suspension mod. I am sure your car is awesome, but that is why there are GT3's in your class. It's not because we undervalue GT3's. The point system is designed to establish equivalencies between stock cars AND non-stock cars, but once you get so far away from stock that >50% of your points are coming from mods, then it's kind of up to you to make sure you are spending those points effectively.

No system will ever be perfect, but let's take a look at the GT3 vs. 996 Carrera comparison you raised. BTW, I drive a 996 Carrera too.

A 996 GT3 starts with 530 base points, plus 30 AX points for its stock LSD, plus 150 wheel points for its stock 8.5” & 11” wheel widths, for a total of 720 points totally stock (assuming street tires).

A 996mk1 (3.4L) C4 like yours has 410 base points. Assuming it runs (the common) 8” & 10” wheel widths, it would have 120 wheel points, for a total of 530 points (again assuming street tires).

So the Carrera 4 owner has 190 points of headroom with which to make his car as capable as a totally stock GT3 can be AX’ing on street tires. He could add a superior-quality adjustable suspension package (+65 to +85), plus install an aftermarket LSD (+30points), remove some weight (+5 to +20 points), run some wider GT3-equivalent wheel widths (+30 points), or some smaller combination of those mods combined with Hoosier R6s (+100 points) or any DOT R-comp tire like the MPSC or 888 (+50 points).

And let’s not forget that the Carrera’s motor and tranny package is lighter than the GT3’s, and has peak torque at lower rpms... both of which are helpful. And the GT3’s big brakes are inferior to the lighter Carrera units for AX where heat capacity is a non-issue… they just add useless unsprung weight.

At an autocross I would think a 996 Carrera as configured above would have a very fair chance against a fully stock 996 GT3 that is AX'ing on 200+ treadwear street tires.

In a time trial situation, I could see the GT3 maintaining some advantage in this hypothetical match-up, but the reality is that most tracked GT3’s are heavily modified and so Carrera’s (like mine) don’t usually end up in the same class as them. And if a stock GT3 shows up in my class due to using street tires, I’m pretty sure I could take ‘em. At least it would be fun trying, and certainly not outside the bounds of fairness.

Please let me know if that helps. And if your feel any of the AX mod points are unfair or unclear, please make a rule change suggestion to help improve this system.

Thanks!!

John

Springgeyser
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Location: San Mateo

Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Springgeyser » Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:49 pm

Please don't take it as me complaining about my mod points. I was only trying to understand how a GT3 can not get hit with MOD points for an stock adjustable coilover suspension, adjustable ARBs, adjustable control arms, adjustable strut top. Yes, the 2009 was favorable for my modded 996 vs a stock 997 turbo in the same class. For 2010, my 996 has no chance in my class against a stock GT3 on Hoosiers.

My points is actually overstates the actual potential of my car. :(
Peter Lim

996 C4. AX6

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MagnusB
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by MagnusB » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:54 pm

I guess you guys put this to rest a while back but I have to agree with Peter.
Maybe I should be faster with the mods I have :-) but I just don't see how my car can compare to a GT3 as it is now.
It feels absurd to be in AX6.
Springgeyser wrote:Please don't take it as me complaining about my mod points. I was only trying to understand how a GT3 can not get hit with MOD points for an stock adjustable coilover suspension, adjustable ARBs, adjustable control arms, adjustable strut top. Yes, the 2009 was favorable for my modded 996 vs a stock 997 turbo in the same class. For 2010, my 996 has no chance in my class against a stock GT3 on Hoosiers.

My points is actually overstates the actual potential of my car. :(
2007 997 S, Carrara White

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Grant K
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Re: Modification Point Clarification

Post by Grant K » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:10 pm

First I think we need to establish whether rules are intended to be fair and create a level playing field or are they to encourage a certain buying behavior? Certain cars with factory performance enhancements tend to be encouraged with the current point system. I like the fact that we incent purchase of newer more capable cars. I like the encouragement of GT3's, special edtion and well optioned cars over aftermarket prepared cars.

I was looking at new Boxster Spyder. If I drop back to say AX8 in that car running it stock on A6 Hoosiers I may just make a change from my aftermarket special car!
Grant
Ugly looking 1999 Boxster #915
AX0?

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