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2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Use this forum to discuss rule proposals, other than the points proposal, which has its's own forum

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Dan Thompson
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Post by Dan Thompson » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:23 pm

Chris wrote:I agree with Miles. The breast clip is the proper solution to this question. Bell motorsports makes these which are secured to the harnesses and are unable to travel up and down. These are known in fact, to be safer than just shoulder straps because they distribute the load over your breastbone, which has a lot of stress on it in the event of a really hard impact.
not according to Schroth and other safety equipment manufacturers.

wish it were not the case....but it is what it is :?
Dan Thompson
GGR DE/TT/CR Racecontrol

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johntavernetti
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Post by johntavernetti » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:32 pm

HI All,

Curious... what was the outcome of the DEC meeting regarding this (and other rules-proposals)? What will the DEC' recommendation be to the Board, and when will the Board be voting?

Thanks.

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Mahler9th
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Post by Mahler9th » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:38 pm

Its been a while since I have visited the GGR site... interesting topics, including this one.

One thing I have noticed is that the stock seat designs in newer cars seem to create more challenging problems for racing harnesses. Back in the mid-eighties, one challenge was that there was no longer a lap belt mounting location on the transmission tunnel. I remember dealing with this and the "horror" of drilling a hole for the inner lap belt in one of my cars. But we seemed to be able to achieve some acceptable installations.

Of course we know more now. But I also think that the seat shapes have changed, and it seems that much harder to get a decent 5 or 6 point set up to work with stock seats. Perhaps impossible.

I am familiar with Miles' set up, but his car seats are from back in the day. I have been in a few 996 cars with 5 or 6 point set ups, and they were lacking. Something(s) about the design of the seat.

Related topic... the concept that somehow the TT activity is different from the other activity at a time trial. That seems just crazy. If there is an issue, it is likely a legal/liability issue, and those usually ride along a continuum. My guess is that unless you totally separate DE and TT drivers all weekend, you are already in the same liability zone. Then if you do separate them, you probably need to think about two sets of club officers, some willing to accept potential liability x versus potentially liability y. Makes no sense to me. My guess is that the liability increases more with the mixing of cars.

To think that someone that has entered as DE is going to be less "aggressive" than someone entered as TT is a little off to me. To me, the DE drivers always represent the greatest risks since they are not as likley to have invested as much commitment to the entire process.

It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Mike Mitchell

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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by TurboTramp » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:48 pm

From the GGR Board Meeting Minutes - 1/9/2008:

"There was discussion of allowing newer cars with airbags, stock seats, and 3-point belts to participate in the time trial portion of Drivers' Ed. Larry Sharp is putting together a proposal to PCA National on time trial standards to deal with this issue. The consensus was to table this issue until Larry Sharp prepares his recommendation, and then evaluate possible actions at that point."

Let's give Larry all the help we can!
Hey Larry, as a hacker I spend a few hours every day researching. Do you need any help with research or documentation?
Ric Vieler :-)

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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:44 am

Hi All I had made a Proposal to the National Executive counsel last weekend. My proposal was to allow the safety standards for Driver Education events to be used for Timed runs. So Far there has been no Objections and they could be passed shortly by National... What this will mean is that National would allow Standard belts or the proper 5 and 6 point harnesses and seats to be used on cars for timed runs... GGR could still choose to have the requirement higher.
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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Dan Thompson
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Dan Thompson » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:52 am

that sounds very promising Larry....good work. :D
Dan Thompson
GGR DE/TT/CR Racecontrol

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PAUL LARSON
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by PAUL LARSON » Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:45 pm

Hi Dan,
There are alot of good points but if you sit on the PCA board it could be different. I have been adding driver's results to the new website and it apears that in ten years, the cars have increased lap time about ten secounds. I am not comparing the alphebet class to the numbers class but in general, I observe cars going faster. You can look at guys who atend alot of events. They will become very consitent with their lap times. Lots of consiten 2:23's and 2:24's at thunderhill in 1989. Now alot of consitent 2:12's and 2:13's at thunderhill. I think that as the cars and the tires get better, the cars run faster. I feel that the PCA board need to do something so why not start with the TT runs. I would expect the DE runs to change a few years later. I think the stock seats are fine but I am no expert. I do not think that the lighter racing seat is better even though it is a one piece design.
I am just glad that I am not on the PCA board.
These are just my thoughts on why they are changing the rules.
Paul

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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by TurboTramp » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:17 pm

Paul:
I'm not sure your argument can be considered without the corresponding safety enhancements over the same period. Sure horsepower has jumped from 272 to 355 (1995-2005) and tires have widened and become grippier, but brakes have been enhanced, PSM has been added, many airbags have been added, crumple zone technology has matured... When I compare the safety of my 2003 C4S to that of my 1996 C4S, I'm not sure 10 seconds faster balances the speed/safety ratio.
Ric Vieler :-)

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PAUL LARSON
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by PAUL LARSON » Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:44 am

Hi Ric,
The point I was trying to make is where will the cars be 10 years from now? Do you think we will be riding around with Hans devices and halo racing seats? I do belive that the cars are built safer but, can you build them even safer in ten years?
Paul

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PAUL LARSON
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by PAUL LARSON » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:24 pm

Hi,
Just installed the racing seat. Now I am asking how safe am I. Unplugging the stock seat has turned off all the airbags. It seems really wierd turning off all this expensive saftey gear all in the name of safety. I hope the PCA board know what there doing.
Paul

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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:36 pm

Paul the National EC Standards at this moment only apply to DE events..The Local Region (GGR) Has decided that to do timed runs the cars must have at the minimum 5 or 6 point Harnesses and the proper seats. The propose National standards I have been working on, will set the minimum standards for timed runs the same as a DE event. Standards belts would be allowed. If you wish to put in the 5 or 6 point belts then you have to follow the standards for those belts which include seats. I noticed your car only has the upgraded belts and seat on the drivers side.. I urge you to check the wording on the standards. They say equal restraints for both seats. That has always been in effect event before the latest standards. As a Zone Rep I will be walking thru the pits at Infineon checking everyones setup. I hope that there wont be to many people upset when they are told their cars dont meet the minimum standarda and possibly cant run .. They have been published for a year now. Everyone should of had time to meet the requirements.

Larry
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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Dan Thompson
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Dan Thompson » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:43 pm

glad someone else can be the bad guy for a while Larry :lol:

Paul, Larry is right...you need equivalent seats and belts on both sides....not just the driver's seat.

I won't be able to walk the grid looking for these things since I will be up in the tower, but I will have at least a few pair of eyes checking on this stuff, and Larry is just one of them. :shock:
Dan Thompson
GGR DE/TT/CR Racecontrol

81SC
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by 81SC » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:34 pm

Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) wrote:They have been published for a year now. Everyone should of had time to meet the requirements.

Larry
The seat rules have only been in effect for the 2008 season, certainly not for a year. We could guess it is coming, but it was not a rule until a few months ago.

I am wondering if GGR hasn't pulled the trigger a little fast on this seat issue (i.e. was there really a threat that we loose insurance, or was it just something we pre-epmpted?). All I hear is "it is what it is" and such from people that already have full race safety equipment. There are not a lot of stock car drivers contributing to the discussion. I have not seen a lot of efforts like the one you are working on now, Larry, before it was too late.

In summary I have to say that I am currently drawn away from GGR. I am only a weekend enthusiast with a hopped up street car. I have never gone 4 off at speed in all my years of participation, including timed events. I feel perfectly safe in my stock safety 993. The rules at GGR are getting very complicated, don't always make a lot of sense, change often, and are generally rather expensive to implement. If I buy sport seats this year, who says I won't be forced by GGR to buy a roll bar next year to complete the "system"?

Best,

George

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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:48 pm

The Rules may have only been in effect since Jan 2008 . But the Standards were published last year so everyone could prepare for them .. In actuality the National standards have been about the same for this year with the major change being about requireing a seat to be part of the system. "Pulling the Trigger too fast" is not the case. There have been to much misinformation about how a seat belt should be installed over the years. The new standard just reinforces what the manufacturers of the belts insist on how they be installed.. For National DE Standards this is the first major safety change in many years. and everyone at the National level feel the standards can continue for years at this level.
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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PAUL LARSON
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by PAUL LARSON » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:09 pm

HI LARRY,
I WILL BRING BELTS TO CONNECT A 5 POINT TO THE PASSENGER SEAT PER THE OLD RULES. I WOULD BE HAPPY TO REMOVE THE PASSENGER SEAT FOR THE TIME RUN. MOST RACE CARS ONLY HAVE ONE SEAT. HOW DO THEY GET TO MAKE RUNS? I AM ALSO HIT WITH 5 POINTS FOR NOT HAVING STOCK SEATS. I SAW A GT-3RS IN THE SHOW ROOM AND IT DID NOT HAVE HOLES IN THE SEAT. A GT-2 HAS HOLES IN IT'S SEATS. THE NON-STOCK SEATS HIT ABOUT 95% OF THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE TIME RUNS.
PAUL

Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp)
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:42 pm

if 95 percent of the cars all have the same modification then it is all fair isnt it?


If you look under the cushions of the GT3 I think they all have a sub strap hole .. I have been in contact with the National DE guys and I am getting a clarification for if you need both seats and belts to be the same for a solo non Instructed Driver. Mostly it is coming to be that Students will need both seats to be the same .. And If an Instructor is going to Instruct they need to be the same for both seats. But Solo Non instructed entrants can have one set of harnesses .. But when they say for sure I will pass it along .
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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PAUL LARSON
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by PAUL LARSON » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:59 pm

Hi Larry,
I was just pointing out the stock seat points because it is now a usless add of points if everyone has it.
As far as student driver's, I do believe that both seats and belts should be the same. I had to buy the extra belts for the instructor even though they were only used for one event. I just happened to have alot of previous track driving experience. Thanks for checking out the solo driver rules.
Paul

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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:53 pm

But if GGR ever lets someone do Timed runs with stock belts they would be at a slight disadvantage to someone with Race belts. It is a small Point total for belts, but it is a mod from a stock car .. Remember the bottom base point is for a totally stock car and any mods to it should be accounted for
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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PAUL LARSON
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by PAUL LARSON » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:08 pm

Hi Larry,
The points are added for not using stock seats. The belts do not carry any points. If everyone needs racing seats, then adding points for non-stock seats is a waste of the point system.
Paul

Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp)
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Re: 2008 Proposal (AJF-2) Harnesses and Seats

Post by Zone7Rep(Larry Sharp) » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:35 am

Paul if GGR ever changes the view on seats and rRestraints then there might be someone doing timed runs with a standard seat.
I still think it is fair to give points for a better and lighter seat than stock. What I don't understand Paul is why you think it is unfair?
1993 RS America
Grand Prix White
Car #6

1974 911 Carrera (resides in Australia)
Light Yellow

1974 914-6 GT (resides in San Luis obispo)

1987 944 turbo (location unknown)

1979 911SC(Hummers have it)

1972 911T (location unknown)

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